Debate: Good vs Evil

No, I think ya'll aren't understanding just what type of person Ellis can be. I'm pretty sure I've never rp'd her taking "pleasure" in killing. It's a purpose. She is completely remorseless, yes and I'm not saying she's not evil, I'm just saying she's not this ridiculous psychopath. Does Ellis care that she killed her own kind for profit - no, not really. Did she enjoy torturing clanless vampires to get the blood? Most certainly not. She's not driven by killing, she's driven by her ambition and if people die - eh, there are 6 billion people in the world, who's really going to notice anyway?

My recent rp'ing of her has made her realize that she was human once and did genuinely care for Simon. Maybe not care for Carol, she was cattle and property to be honest, but Simon? No she loved him, heart and soul - with whatever was left of what was good in her. Now she's driven by revenge and quite frankly jealousy. Who likes being scorned? Human or otherwise?

No, Ellis isn't violent for the sake of violence. She is remorseless, yes and has no compunction about killing people to get what she wants. She is a subtle kind of ruthlessness. In fact I don't think I've ever rp'd killing anyone just for the sake of doing it. Ellis will feed on children but kill them? Never. Why? Ruin a good food source. Has she killed a group of men? Yes. Why? Because they were a rape gang planning on raping her. She did society a service and that's exactly how she saw it. She has strange and perculiar sense of morals. Rape is the lowest of low and will kill anyone doing it.

I didn't make Ellis completely totally evil because honestly, that's boring and I plan on killing her...some day. Because evil shouldn't live forever, good will overcome and yes Simon was created as her polar opposite.

Remember, it's all about the monkey poo.

Well for sure you would know and understand her motivations better than anyone Roz. I have to admit I've not read everything that Ellis has ever written either, so my feelings were completely based on what I have read, and my own interpretations.

Then again, like I said with the dictionary reference...the word 'evil' can be subjective as well.

I think it's safe to say Ellis just isn't a very nice person...?

Outwardly? She's charming and a gracious host. As a person, yeah...she gives a shit hehe.

Exactly how i see it concerning Ellis /nod, she's a jealous person that's clear, Simon took what was hers without asking and now she's pissed

The operative word is is still "can". She certainly has a capacity for good. That just isn't her tendency. Remorselessness covers it quite nicely. Like Ginnie, Ellis has (had) very specific spots in which she would operate within the bounds of vampiric acceptability, certainly. Toward Simon, maybe even humanely at one point (though it remains to be seen if that is still a weak spot for her or not - somehow I think that chink in her armor is pretty well filled in ).

But the killing of clanless, and then planning to expand to her own clan to harvest them...I don't think that can be attributed simply to ambition. At some point it crosses over to being the vampiric equivalent of serial killing...active premeditated murder of large numbers of her own kind. Sure, the ruthless ambition is the root of it, but when each individual step is an evil act, the final outcome is even greater. Ellis is certainly at least a sociopath, even among her kind. She misses the definition of psychopath by not being perverse (either in action or by way of deriving pleasure from her actions), but still undeniably evil. Not simply evil, no...but certainly well into that realm with not even a glance over her shoulder.

Oooh. You go to work and you miss out on all the juicy debate.

I don't see Ellis as strictly evil. I see her as self-serving and opportunistic with a large dose of loose ethics. Just for the record!!

As for my own critters, they hang about on all sides of the fence. Kem has been a goody-goody from the start... the bastard. And Aishe is definitely on the good side, but a lot more center field than Kem is.

Ysabel is pretty neutral, and she might swing toward he 'evil' side now and then depending on your viewpoint.

And Tai is... one fucked up little bastard. But I don't think he's exactly evil either. Maybe a little evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough?

*coughcough*hiredkiller*coughcough* :P

Sorry Aishe, Tai is definately evil. I believe hitmen qualify for the healthplan of evil.

Tai is my evil pooters!

LOL. All right. I tried!! Tai's evil. Ok? Eeeeeeeeeeeevil!

Does that mean Alex is evil too *blinks* cause she's working for Tai

I'm kinda surprised you -don't- think Alex is evil. I do!

He's just as remorseless as Ellis is and blinded by lust!

I would say yes, though not for her "hit" but for the eating of the taxi driver with Panos. Tisk tisk tisk! Not only evil for killing but wastefull!

Like everyone else has been saying, it's all relative. For example, Thaddeus has such absurdly high standards for what makes a good person that he himself could -never- measure up. He wouldn't say he was evil (out loud...though sometimes he thinks it) but he certainly wouldn't say he was good. However, put him next to -some- people and he looks like a saint. I think 'decent' is his attempt at describing himself.

Palmer would describe himself as 'okay'. He's actually a bit more high and mighty than he comes off and while he knows he isn't perfect, he also puts ethics high on his list of priorities of things to consider in a given situation.

Dani definately shoots for good and thinks she succeeds most of the time. If she didn't believe what she was doing was right she couldn't possibly do it - she's actually a more extreme version of Palmer in that ethics are most often her -first- consideration in a given situation.

Theo would have no internal moral compass at all without Paul, and even then oftentimes she gets led astray by the other voices in her head. Without the voices she would be neutral imo. She believes she is good even though she acknowledges that she sometimes does bad things...but only sees them as bad because of either consquences or because someone else tells her they're bad.

Nova is quite willing to push the ethical envelope when it comes to her work and loves getting down and dirty with the fighting...but for her there's definately a line. She doesn't like killing people, though hurting them a little is okay. I wouldn't consider her evil and while she might sometimes call herself that, for her there comes a point where being evil just isn't fun anymore. She's more like...a little bad.

Lol ok so Alex is evil and she eats taxi drivers for lunch and dinner and breakfast, the men knew to much and she was hungry, give the girl a break

There can be no black and white definition of evil when I think of Amberelle. She's a thief, with no remorse for it, even enjoys the thrill and challenge of it. She's a killer, both because she had no choice (for her sire) and sometimes when she hunts (though she specifically targets what she views as criminals like drug dealers and rapists). Now she doesn't always kill.. and she certainly isn't the type of person someone would look at and call evil. But is she? *I* have never viewed her as evil, but her actions do put her really in the darker gray. Funny when I think about it since she is one of my "nicer" girls.

And while I see Ellis as evil, I do think she's a sum of her experiences. For a woman to survive and thrive in history she had to be really rutheless and do a lot of things that may have been OK in society of that time but have since become classified as wrong. Were Ellis a man I don't think it would come across as so evil.

Also.. people kill in war. We don't consider it bad because that is the circumstances they are operating in and it makes it OK. Using that frame of reference then apply it to a race that is trying to avoid massive genocide by a vastly superior number. Vampires have to be rutheless to get ahead and stay ahead of humans at times.

We do what is necessary. That is balance. It is neither good nor evil.

And that is how Mai sees herself, neither good nor evil.

I think Tai had some remorse with dinner a few nights ago.


But he took a few antacids and he was fine in a half an hour or so.

I think good is an unreal viewpoint of society. Stealing is considered wrong and therefore evil but the large part of society has never gone hungry either. A child that is starving and orphaned is a victim... until they remedy their situation by stealing and then they are considered bad.

Me, I'm the same person that I was as a human, more or less. I don't care for society's labels of good or evil. I do what I do because I can and if you can make me stop...then more power to you. The weak call the powerful corrupt and evil but only those that sit around and whine about being victims. I think the real evil is thinking that someone else's opinion or rules make you who you are.